Printed from the blog of Lori Greene, AHC/CDC, CCPR, FDAI
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Jul 08 2016

FF: Dutch Door Modification

This Fixed-it Friday photo from Paul Shaaf and Kevin Lach of Twin City Hardware is a first for me.  And after 7+ years of writing this blog, I don’t say that very often.  Zoom in and enjoy.


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26 Responses to “FF: Dutch Door Modification”

  1. Cda says:

    Just needs the door closure attached and working!!!

    Looks like the door swings into a room??

  2. Dave Matas says:

    I’m thinking it is no longer fire rated. But very creative. I have seen this type of creative of “adjustments” done in churches. Volunteers can be very resourceful but not so safe.

    • SERGIO ENRIQUE says:

      I’m agree, might be they want change from exit usage of this door to classroom door usage . I think result not easy to guess the intention of them, any way they need put hands on to work it.

  3. Michael Pedersen says:

    I also like the armless closer, and the wire glass in a setting intended for children. Though the lite is pretty high off the ground, so not a big threat.

    I’m also curious about the layout/application such that this door would require a fire exit device. This looks like it might be a pediatric clinic, and this is the door between the treatment area and the waiting room?

  4. J Peter Jordan says:

    I am noticing the door stop (not permitted on a rated door), but there is something odd about the closer. The housing is there, but I don’t see an arm. Is there a new product I am not aware of?

  5. Terry Crump, FDAI says:

    Besides the previously discussed problems…the lite cutout is too close to the exit device prep (5″ minimum clearance) It’s obviously in a frame not designed for a dutch door application. The middle hinge has been cut in two on the door leaf. It must be a field modification, and I doubt if the meeting rails are ‘firestop’ material (if there’s a rail at all). There’s no overlapping astragal on the bottom of the top leaf–it’s required for the door to be self-closing.

    • Chuck Park says:

      The overlapping astragal would be mounted on the pull side of the bottom edge of the top leaf. But I doubt they installed one.

    • ron says:

      ok, lets forget all about any fire label/rating for the moment.. it’s a jinned up
      contraption, while neatly done to meet the perceived needs of some with a clueless
      ego, ergo management ?

  6. SteveD says:

    There’s more wrong than right there, that’s for sure.

  7. Ryan Johnson says:

    I really like the custom 4.5″ x 2.25×2.25″ hinge at the middle.

  8. Tony Calistro says:

    looks like the door holder also violates the ADA code as well as the fire door requirement for self closing

  9. WSM says:

    All they had was a dbl egress dr & hrdw to work with. A rated dr in an unrated frame! They needed dutch dr function, so they cut it in half coping around the panic device & put a flr stop on it too! Can’t zoom in close enough, but I assume they cut the dr side of the middle hinge in half too. Wow, a lot of thought went into this, but judging from all of the modifications carried out, I’m assuming a rated opening isn’t required here.

  10. David Scott Kenyon says:

    The door has a fire label label identification on the inside rail. Even after magnifying the photo it is impossible to read. Ingenious middle hinge split. Cutting the door in half and piecing it back together with throw bolt would definitely revoke any rating classification. The closer arm has been removed so the door no longer class on it own. The door stop was illegal on a rated door assembly – however no longer rated. Could have been an exit through another room, however hard to tell if there is an exit sign.To many questions and not enough answers as to why this door has been altered. I don’t like the wire glass either. Typical case of retrofit as required – forget about the codes !

    • ron says:

      well, were i a fdai rated person i’d say, if you want to stay on the
      right side of the law/fire marshal – you got 2 choices. call a qualified
      door labeler and pay $1300 for the service and a $5.00 label, or replace
      the contraption with a labeled door, don’t modify it and that’ll cost
      you maybe $300-400…

  11. Paula Nyquist says:

    All I can say is HUH

  12. Jim ELder says:

    Is there such a thing as a fire rated Dutch door? Believe it or not, I have had an occasion for just such a door as this.

  13. jutzi says:

    Has all the earmarks of another Bill Elliott spec. Thought he retired! 🙂 🙂 🙂

    • pool says:

      is that a dig at some “bill elliot” ? like it gets “the bill elliot award” ? hehe

      • Lori says:

        Bill Elliott and Bob Jutzi are two of my favorite instructors / mentors, and Jutzi likes to give Bill a hard time. But if I create a “Bill Elliott Award” based on Jutzi’s criteria, Bill will never speak to me again.

        – Lori

  14. rich says:

    We all continue to learn here. Thanks Lori.
    I seem to have forgotten something here and the comment about the 5″ clearance brings it up. What have I forgotten and where is it in the code? I have probably committed that violation more than once.

    • Lori says:

      Hi Rich –

      The minimum clearance between cutouts for vision lights and hardware is not specified in the model codes. It is part of each manufacturer’s listing procedures and can vary depending on the manufacturer and the type of core material.

      – Lori

  15. Bryan says:

    Does anyone appreciate the double blind vertical cut to the left of the center case?
    That is not easy to do!

  16. Ian Greene says:

    Just put a smoke seal on that bad boy and call it a day……..


    and wait for a letter of subpoena……….

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