Printed from the blog of Lori Greene, AHC/CDC, CCPR, FDAI
Allegion
Email: lori_greene@allegion.com, Blog: www.idighardware.com or www.ihatehardware.com


Oct 07 2015

WWYD? Multiple Crossbars

Category: Egress,Panic Hardware,WWYD?Lori @ 10:17 pm Comments (17)
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This question has come up before but I had not seen a good door to illustrate the issue – until today!  I spotted the hardware from the outside but because it was a lawyer’s office I didn’t plan on going in to ask if I could take a photo of their door.  Then on my way out of the building, someone came out of the lawyer’s office and I saw that it was a Von Duprin A device and I couldn’t resist.

So here’s the question…is it code-compliant to have panic hardware along with additional stationary horizontal push-bars?  Oddly enough, when I asked the receptionist for permission to take the photos, she told me that “nobody knows how to get through the door” because they don’t push on the crossbar device – they push on the stationary bars.  Personally I would have found a way to dog the panic hardware by now, but what do you think?  OK or NO WAY?

Crossbars

Door with Crossbars  A Device

Look what we were working on in Indianapolis today (6 more videos are in the works!)!

Drew

17 Responses to “WWYD? Multiple Crossbars”

  1. Dwight says:

    I don’t know about code compliance, but if it hinders the exiting of a building during an emergency it is bad.

    I personally think the push bars are very pretty.

    I wonder what type of business originally occupied the building. It looks like the bars are at a higher level than normal. Maybe they were originally to protect the glass when large carts (like hotel luggage carts, bakery racks, etc) were pushed through.

  2. Logan says:

    I may be mistaken, but I believe the primary reason to have a panic “bar” is to prevent crowd crush. If people are ganging up to a door in an emergency the door must automatically pop open without anyone having to turn a handle or knob. Therefore I would interpret that as long as the panic bar is compliant by itself, the addition of other bars would only be a violation if they somehow prevented the door from operating properly.

    The fact that people don’t know how to open the door is analogous to someone pulling on a door labeled “PUSH”. Yes, it may be inconvenient or annoying, but not unsafe. Just my 2 cents.

  3. Marcus Muirhead says:

    Bad idea. Someone was trying to protect the glass panel in the door, and it looks okay to me, but it’s never going to stop inviting people to push the wrong bar. Dogged down, it probably doesn’t violate code. Is this in Mexico?

  4. Jeffrey Rapp says:

    The bank across the street from my office has pull handles on both sides of the door. ???? Everyone, including myself, wants to pull the door from the inside. The handle tells your brain to pull. Instead of changing them out for pushes they put a large sign on the door that says “Push”. Dumb.

  5. Lisa Goodwin Robbins says:

    I like it. I’m all for hands-free exits. I would push the push bar with my hip and lean my shoulder into the stationary bars.

    The lawyers can’t figure out how to open the door? So how many lawyers does it take to open a door? Do they need someone to mix cocktails first? Is it time to find a new lawyer?

  6. Joanne G. says:

    An egress door has to be “readily openable from the egress side without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.” I wouldn’t think that operation of a panic bar would count as special knowledge, but, based on the receptionist’s comments, apparently it is!

  7. Kevin says:

    Looking closer, it appears that this door was repurposed and not originally where it is located now. That would possibly explain the additional push bars. The door has a great patina to it, while the frame appears to be newer bright brass.

    As for whether or not it is code-compliant, it only takes one operation to open it, so I voted ok. However, one could also look at the two push bars in a similar way to how murals are sometimes intrepid as an impedance. Instead of not seeing it well enough, it is “which one do I pick to push”. But still guessing it is code-compliant.

  8. Chuck says:

    While it may be a bit confusing to have three similar bars on the door, I think that it’s okay as long as the stationary bars do not project from the face of the door more than the depth of the fully depressed exit bar.

  9. Chad says:

    I agree with Logan above. The device was design so that a body pressed up against the door would cause the latch to retract even under higher loads applied to the door. Its a sad statement that we are considering procedures to compensate for inattention.

  10. Darryl says:

    Would a lever dummy trim and lever lockset on the same door be ok?

    • Lori says:

      That’s a good question. In my opinion, it would require special knowledge to know which one to use, so I would vote no.

      – Lori

  11. Clair E Gunnet Jr AHC says:

    For exiting, the push bar tells me that the door is not latched or locked during normal business hours. I can exit at any time. The panic bar tells me that I can push on the crossbar, the latch retracts, and the door opens so I may exit.Multiple devices means that special knowledge is required to know which device will allow the door to open for exiting. Not permitted.

  12. Bob Caron says:

    We have something similar to figure out here. We have a customer with a typical aluminum storefront door and Adams Rite deadlatch. Cylinder outside, paddle inside and a push bar across the glass. They want a panic bar and Adams Rite makes one that works with the deadlatch so there is very little alteration of the door. But, as many of you know, those latches are usually placed at the upper limits of ADA compliance. This solution would also have more than one push bar with only one of them opening the door if it is not dogged. They could remove the lower bar and patch the holes but I’m still not crazy about a panic bar that high up.

    • Lori says:

      Hi Bob –

      I think the panic at that height might look kind of odd, but as long as the panic is between 34″ and 48″ AFF, it’s code-compliant. I’m not a fan of the extra bar – especially after seeing the set-up in Indy and hearing that people have trouble with it. But with the panic mounted so high and the bar removed, I wonder if people will be constantly touching the glass.

      – Lori

  13. Louise says:

    I just had cataract surgery. Before surgery, the door and all of the bronze would have blended and been blurry, I’d have to say no. It’s not a case of eventually I’d find the release.
    As for pulls on both sides of doors, we have a pair with four pulls. My brain still wants to pull. I’m old and slightly less trainable, so I need to remember to push. ;->

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