Printed from the blog of Lori Greene, AHC/CDC, CCPR, FDAI
Allegion
Email: lori_greene@allegion.com, Blog: www.idighardware.com or www.ihatehardware.com


Jan 08 2013

Reader Photos

Category: Egress,Panic Hardware,Reader PhotosLori @ 1:57 pm Comments (27)
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First, I need some help.  I’ve seen photos of this application a few times (including this one from Jim Jensen of Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies), but what do you use to attach the two closers together?  Is it something that has to be custom made, or is there a standard part that can be repurposed for the job?

I received photos of this beautiful door in Israel from Eyal Bedrik of Entry Systems Ltd.  I wish I knew the story behind it.

 

And from Jeff Tock of Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies, who could have his own weekly guest spot on iDigHardware because of all the bad applications he sees in his training travels, his latest hotel issues:

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This one was sent by Bruce Edelman of Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies with the subject line: “Thought of you.”  I’m not sure how to take that.  🙂

And finally, in case you were starting to think that I take my protection of egress routes and fire doors to the extreme, I’m not alone.  Check out this blog post from the Rekindle blog.

27 Responses to “Reader Photos”

  1. David L. says:

    I believe it is an IR Special Template, I recall this application being used on Montreal’s subway station doors (as they are exposed to extreme pressure deltas when the trains are arriving or leaving the underground stations.)

    • Lori says:

      I called Tech Support and they said there was no special template. 🙁

      • Jess says:

        Lori, these closers are NOT IRST’s products, they are from one of the companies ASSA ABLOY owns (Sargent)

        • Lori says:

          I know they’re not IRST products, but theoretically you should be able to connect 2 4041s the same way.

          • Jess says:

            Lori,

            I have seen it a couple of times (2 LCN 4041’s doubled up) Mark(from LCN plant) shown me a photo of some that were at an airport.

            as for the part, as I say, “if there’s a will, there’s a way” and if you put your mind to it, it can be done when installing a door closer, but it also is HIGHLY recommended that you READ and follow manufacturer’s instructions, as it may void the warentee if installed improperly.

            -Jess the door closer doctor

  2. Nolan thrope says:

    I have heard about it but have never seen it. Very cool. I think the cylinders are on backwards

    • Jess says:

      Nolan,

      due to how this brand’s Rack and Pinion is set up, mounting it backwards on the door is only way you can have it work as PA arm install.

      one downside i have observed about the cylinder being mounted with spindle away from hinge, you can’t get a full 180º open, (and also depends on the instructions, and how many inches from edge of door the closer body is) as the arm will hit the door at 165º (I have seen one snap it’s arm in half due to no stop to limit maximum opening angle, there was also lots of PA arm shoe bending and frame damage,

      -Jess the door closer doctor

  3. Tom Breese says:

    Wow, a size 12 closer. I’ve done a p-arm plus a regular arm, never tried coupling two spindles, though. Mechanically greater advantage if he’d gone w/ a coupled regular arm arrangement. Not a complicated bit of machining, could be done w/ a pair of 4041’s.

  4. Jess says:

    Hello Lori,

    about the 2 closers attached together using same arm,(commonly seen on cruise ships and at airports) the connector between the 2 has to be a 3/8 inch drive socket to accommodate the pinion shafts of both closers(these 2 closers are not IR products), not sure if its available by calling customer support of the closer manufacturer or if it was made by the installer.

    as for the push or pull doors, they need to change that sign to PUSH, due to the 2 closers are mounted as TJ install and i do not see any hinges or pivots, this to me means the door is PUSH to open.

    -Jess the door closer doctor

  5. Darren says:

    Those closers are not an IR product. I’m not going to promote anything here but if you need to know I will tell you.

    • Lori says:

      I know they’re not our closers…if another manufacturer is offering the connector as a standard part, feel free to post.

  6. Tom Breese says:

    Just conjecturing “out loud” here, but maybe two 11/16″ sockets from the hardware store coupled back-to-back with a piece of 3/8″ (maybe slightly thicker to take up slop (+1/64″ / -0″) — square steel stock? Or, just weld the two sockets together?

  7. Nolan Thrope says:

    I was told years back that this will not give you size 12 power. It will probably give you 50% more power, size 9.
    I think thats a good idea. Get an 11/16 long socket and cut the end off.

  8. Bryan McKeehan says:

    Lori,
    It should be simple enough for your factory to broach a piece of 1 inch round stock to the same dimensions as the 4041 arm, there may even be a steel mill out there producing a product with the correct internal hexagonal void. Any decent machine shop should be able to produce them on a local basis as well. Of course some calculations will be needed for the length. If the closers are properly templated and installed the part would not need any thing else connecting it to the spindles. The key of course is correct installation.

  9. Ryan Bradley says:

    A person could probably use a deep well socket and cut off the square side of said socket. The chrome appearance in the picture leads me to believe that is what this installer used.

  10. Farid Khan Afridi says:

    As per my information, we are buying it locally here in Saudi Arab and adjust ( cut )it in machine shop. We are using it on oversize doors.

    Socket Deep ½”x23mm CRV-15

    I will try to get some more detail ( photos) if required.

  11. bruce young says:

    Lori –
    just can’t help but check in most mornings to see what you are up to!
    I sold one of these units many years ago – 2 ea 4115 with one spindle to handle a 4′ reverse bevel door on a “fan” room very near to board room in a bank building in Richmond, VA. this was when I was with a distributor and the head of engineering came up with the special template. the template was not original for my application. they had used it prior.

  12. Lee Francisco says:

    I’ve seen a drawing from cough*Norton*cough that shows what you need to connect the two closers. They do not provide it but they give you the dimensions of the connector so that you can out source it.

  13. Dave says:

    Lori. Paul o’Brien told me about one of those. He had first hand info that the person made his own coupling from a socket adapter.
    I had a similar door issue here. What I did was mount two closers also,but mounted the second one on the opposite side of the door pa mount.I haven’t had to revisit that issue in atleast 8 years.

  14. Andy Lindenberg says:

    I can’t help but notice the big concern with the strength of the closer, but no concern for the arm. It won’t take long for that P9 arm to buckle with a bit of leverage and pressure from the heavy/oversized door. Should’ve used the P10 heavy duty forged arm.

  15. Vernon Mcleod says:

    I have a similar door that was too heavy for a pneumatic operator so a 4041 was added on the push side. Of course the pneumatic operator has to work harder to open the door so we had to add clips to hold the air hoses connected.

    • Lori says:

      That sounds complicated. How long has it been in place? I wonder if the pneumatic operator still meets the low-energy requirements for opening force – 15 pounds maximum to stop the door as it opens.

  16. Vernon Mcleod says:

    This was installed about 9 years ago and the pneumatic closer was replaced once because it leaked, other than that it has worked fine. The opening force hasn’t been tested but it is on the building compressed air with a regulator. (probably adjusted higher than recommended)

  17. Tabish Khan says:

    Abloy (brand from Finland) offers a doubled up closer as a standard product. They call it a tandem closer & is Size 6 – 7. Part Number is DC270

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